Slay Undead!!!

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Slay Undead!!!

Postby Galelor on 06 Jun 2007 19:23

Slay Undead

Definition: Slay Undead
Slay undead is 3 level Paladin class AA. It gives Paladins the ability to inflict "slay" damage to undead NPCs. A "slay" is a hit that deals and exceptionally large amount of damage only to Undead NPCs. (Paladins can actually have 1hp point slays without any AA, if they have the disc Holyforge running.)
The Depths of Darkhollow and The Serpent's Spine expansions each offer 3 level AA upgrades in Vanquish Undead and Annihilate Undead, respectively. To earn the Slay Undead Class AA one must spend 6AA points in the General tab, 12AA points in the Archetype tab, and then pay 3AA, followed by 6AA, followed by 9AA for Slay Undead levels 1, 2, and 3, respectively. Slay Undead level 3 is a requisite for Vanquish Undead. Vanquish Undead costs 7AA, followed by 7AA, followed by 7AA for ranks 1, 2, and 3. Vanquish Undead is a requisite for Annihilate Undead. Annihilate Undead costs 7AA, followed by 7AA, followed by 7AA for ranks 1, 2, and 3.


Direct Increasers to Slay Rate
Slay rate is defined as the number of times one slays during a set amount of blows inflicted on an NPC.

The AAs Slay Undead and Annihilate Undead are the only known things that can actually increase the rate of which Paladins slay. These AAs will actually increase the number of times one slays per a set amount of swings. The disc Holy forge is parsed to actually increases the rate at which slays occurs.


Direct Increasers to Number of Slays
Number of Slays is defined as the number of times one slays during a given time period.

There are several things which can increase one's number of slays during a given time period. These would include, but is not limited to: lower delay weapons, both worn and cast haste, any increase to accuracy, any increase to hit rate including Ferocity and AAs (also riposte if tanking,) Slay Undead and Annihilate Undead, and using bash.

Basically, anything that allows a Paladin to hit a target more will increase the amount of slays during a given time period. This is due to the fact that the same slay rate will be present, but there will be more hits of which to apply to the slay rate.

Example- If slay rate equals 2 slays per 10 hits, and one hits 10 times a minute, one would slay 2 times during that minute. If one was able to hit 20 times a minute, then one would slay 4 times during that minute.


Direct Increasers to the Intensity of Slays
Intensity of slay is defined as the damage inflicted from a slay.

Very few things will increase the amount of damage one will inflict per hit during a slay. This includes, and is mostly limited to: being a high level pc, higher damage weapons, damage augs on the weapon, the Vet AA Intensity of the Resolute, spells such as Might or Lions, the spell Champion, the Life Shard proc from Burial Rites, NPC susceptibility to melee/type of weapons, and the Slay Undead-Vanquish Undead-Annihilate Undead AAs.

Basically, the Slay formula below will provide more specific details as to how these intensity increasers will add additional slay damage.


The Slay Formula
Slay Formula is defined as the way in which Slay Rate, Number of Slays, and Slay Intensity is calculated. These calculations do not take into account the variability of EQ’s random number generator in most cases.

let: actual slay rate percentage = x; slay rate percentage modifiers via all slay AA = a; slay rate percentage modifiers via Holyforge = b; number of slays = y; number of hits = s; bonus damage = f; added bonus damage = F; minimum hit = m; maximum hit = M; weapon damage = w; level modifier= L; minimum slay intensity = i; maximum slay intensity = I; slay intensity mod via AA = c; damage mod via buffs = d; slay intensity mod via Lifeshard type recourse = e.
Slay Rate increase from Holyforge is parsed to be between 1.4% to 1.5%
FYI, int = integer = whole number. IE: Disregard any remainder.
slay intensity mod via AA: Slay undead 1 = 15, Slay undead 2 = 16, Slay undead 3 = 17, Vanquish Undead 1 = 18, Vanquish Undead 2 = 19, Vanquish 3 = 20, Annihilate Undead 1 = 21, Annihilate Undead 2 = 22, Annihilate Undead 3 = 23.

Slay Rate
The slay rate during a given time frame, for a given number of hits.
Slay Rate Formula: a + b = x
or
Slay Rate Formula: slay rate percentage modifiers via all slay AA + slay rate percentage modifiers via Holyforge = actual slay rate percentage

Number of Slays
The number of slays during a given time frame.
Number of Slays Formula: s * x = y
or
Number of Slays Formula: number of hits * actual slay rate percentage = number of slays

Added Bonus Damage
Additional bonus damage added onto the shown bonus damage of a weapon, if the bonus damage if over 55.
Added Bonus Damage Formula: int((f - 15) * 0.025) = F
or
Added Bonus Damage Formula: int((damage bonus - 15) * 0.025) = added bonus damage

Weapon Damage
The damage a weapon will inflict during a given hit.
Minimum Weapon Damage Formula: int((w - 5) * 0.1) + f + F + 1 = m
Maximum Weapon Damage Formula: int(int(w * L) * d) + f + F + 1= M
or
Minimum Weapon Damage Formula: int((weapon damage - 5) * 0.1) + bonus damage + added bonus damage + 1 = minimum hit
Maximum Weapon Damage Formula: int(int(weapon damage * level modifier) * damage mod via buffs) + bonus damage + added bonus damage + 1 = maximum hit

Intensity of Slay for Weapons
The intensity of a slay, for a weapon, during a given slay.
Minimum Intensity of Slay Formula: int((w + 5) * c) + f + F = i
Maximum Intensity of Slay Formula: int(int(int(w * L) * (d + e) + 6) * c) + f + F = I
or
Minimum Intensity of Slay Formula: int((weapon damage + 5) * slay intensity mod via AA) + bonus damage + added bonus damage = minimum intensity of slay
Maximum Intensity of Slay Formula: int(int(int(weapon damage * level modifier) * (damage mod via buffs + slay intensity mod via lifeshard type recourse) + 6) * slay intensity mod via AA) + bonus damage + added bonus damage = maximum intensity of slay


Clarifying the Myths
This section was created to help dispel the common misconceptions about slay that were not already covered.

Slays vs Crit Hits:
Slays do not occur from critical hits. This was once the case, but it is the case no longer. When one slays, one will "lose" a critical hit as the chance to slay is checked prior to the chance to critical hit.

Cleave:
Increasing ones number of critical hits through cleave will not increase slay rate nor number of slays. The reason for this is explained above.

Holyforge:
There are no current parses to prove that Holyforge actually decreases slay rate. Holyforge actually increases slay rate. The way slay/critical/crippling are checked would logically indicate that Holyforge would NOT damage slay rate due to increasing critical/crippling hit rate.

2 Hander Damage Bonus:
2 hand weapon damage bonus is not calculated into the actual slay. After the slay is calculated, the damage bonus is added to the resulting number. This is why the DPS difference between 1 handed weapons and 2 handed weapons is somewhat marginalized when fighting undead.


Common Practice
This section provides a bit of info about what other Paladins are doing.

Damage augs:
Some Paladins try to aug their epics (1.5/2.0/2.5) with damage increasing augs. The low delay makes the epic a nice candidate for slay DPS.

Ferocity:
Ferocity is held in high regard for anyone who is looking to put out serious slay DPS.

Attack:
Do to the nature of how attack works, it is advantageous to max attack when trying to produce serious slay DPS.

AA:
Most Paladins save Holyforge and Intensity of the Resolute for "burst" slay DPS.


Resource's I consulted to compile this write up
viewtopic.php?p=50014&highlight=slay#50014
http://samanna.net/eq.paladin/pal.aas.discs.shtml
viewtopic.php?t=2889
http://forums.station.sony.com/eq/posts ... _id=106881
viewtopic.php?t=4603
http://giline.versus.jp/shiden/su2_e.htm
http://giline.versus.jp/shiden/damage_e.htm
http://giline.versus.jp/shiden/su.htm
Many, Many, Many people have added MUCH to assist me in the creation of this write up.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Please submit any needed changes or suggestions to me via this form, or via PM!!!
Last edited by Galelor on 19 Apr 2008 12:57, edited 35 times in total.
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Postby Saintsaens on 06 Jun 2007 23:40

Sounds like a candidate for either Tomes of Knowledge, or to be transformed into a dropdown webpage, which is a bit easier to read and understand, IMO, once it's finished. Up to you if you want it transformed into that, but I have been looking for ideas on ways to expand the paladin content of the dropdown pages above, and not coming up with very many ideas... This could be one, however.
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Postby ZsaZsa Vavoom on 07 Jun 2007 12:35

Yup, and one that is long overdue. Some shiny purple elf said she'd write it up a few months back, but then got busy and distracted and never did :-( If you get something written up, I'd be happy to help review it. Thanks for stepping up on this.

In general, I think populating a library of guides from the dropdown menus is a nice way to go. It isn't like we're so overflowing with these that those menus will become unwieldy.
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Postby Galelor on 07 Jun 2007 14:45

ZsaZsa Vavoom wrote:Yup, and one that is long overdue. Some shiny purple elf said she'd write it up a few months back, but then got busy and distracted and never did :-( If you get something written up, I'd be happy to help review it. Thanks for stepping up on this.

In general, I think populating a library of guides from the dropdown menus is a nice way to go. It isn't like we're so overflowing with these that those menus will become unwieldy.


I am going to MAKE you review it!
Being that my main is a shaman and I already keep the single group ac aug list, you guys are going to owe me hookers and beer for this =p

Hopefully I can get some basic info outlined today, depending on how busy work is. Thus far I have been hammered at work, but i suspect later we will slow down.

Also, any ideas on format? I was going to go for simple and easily readable at a glance. I was going to try to stay away from paragraph explinations.
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Postby UDP13 on 07 Jun 2007 21:01

You could probably add Burial Rites, when the "lifeshard" affect works, to that list of increasing slay damage as well
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Re: Slay Undead

Postby Hulkling on 08 Jun 2007 01:32

Galelor wrote:Direct Increasers to the Intensity of Slays
Intensity of slay is defined as the damage inflicted from a slay.

Anything that can increase the amount damage one will inflict per hit will increase the damage one can output during a slay. This includes, but is not limited to: being a high level pc, higher damage weapons, damage augs on the weapon, AA (especially Intensity of the Resolute,) spells such as Champion, NPC susceptibility to melee/type of weapons, and Slay Undead-Vanquish Undead-Annihilate Undead.

Other than intensity of the Resolute, I can't think of any other AAs that will effect the intensity other than Slay/Vanquish/Annihilate....which are listed seperately at the end.

Add the slay formula and I think its darn near perfect, format and all
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Postby Luthair on 08 Jun 2007 10:17

Swing AA perhaps?

I believe the following should not be included:
Some Paladins prefer to use 1 handed weapons to DPS undead NPCs. The usual characteristics of 1 handed weapons is the very low damage delay. More swings gives a larger number of slays.


It gives the impression that its somehow better DPS which is incorrect, 1-hand weapons are typically worse for slay DPS due to their lower ratios when compared to an equivalent 2-hander. Not to mention that I can only recall on person who used 1-handed weapons for slays, in my experience its more common for paladins to use high damage weapons (which is equally stupid).
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Postby Hulkling on 08 Jun 2007 12:17

Do we actually have any parses showing which weapon is best for slays? Until we have solid parses, perhaps add a note that its up to each individual to determine which weapon is best for maximizing thier slay DPS.
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Re: Slay Undead

Postby orionpax on 08 Jun 2007 12:22

Galelor wrote: Annihilate Undead costs 5AA, followed by 7AA, followed by 9AA for ranks 1, 2, and 3, respectively.


This is now 7, 7, 7 for AU rank 1, 2, and 3 respectively.

The other thing to add is that it probably makes less sense to use a 1 handed weapon for slaying because the Quick Blade line of AAs can make up the difference in number of slays and overall dps.

Other than that, it's a great post! Thanks for your work on this. Could we get this stickied?
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Postby Kotys on 08 Jun 2007 15:47

Thank you, Galelor!

This information is long overdue. I have always referred to Romidar's Slay Undead FAQ. While there is a wealth of good information in his FAQ there are some things that have obviously been changed.

Although in his original post Romidar writes:
How does holyforge discipline impact slay undead?

Holyforge acts to triple your chance of getting a critical hit. So, if you had 300 dexterity and a 3% chance to get a critical hit, you'd have a 9% chance of a critical hit during holyforge. Since slays are tied directly to critical hits, this also serves to increase your chance to get a slay.

During holyforge, you also have a chance to score CRIPPLING BLOWS. During the discipline, a single hit has a chance of being turned into EITHER a crippling blow OR a slay. The game goes through a couple of steps?

1. Is the hit a critical hit?
2. If yes, is the critcial hit a slay?
3. If no, is the critical hit a crippling blow?

This means that a crippling blow cannot become a slay (we know this, in part, by looking at the relationship between maximum critical hit and maximum slay and the lack of relationship between maximum cripple and maximum slay).


Later on in the thread he amends this with new information regarding changes made to the way Slay Undead and crits worked together:
It was parsed multiple times here - Caladel and I, among others, have post parses to show that crits go up and slays go down. One way to see it very well is to look at slays during holyforge - before FotA, half of your specials will be slays. After FotA, that's no longer true.

SOE came here and told us that they were modifying how slays would interact with PoP AA's so that it would NOT scale up (they were going to do a different nerf before there was a big outcry). They didn't explain exactly how this was going to be done, but it was easy to see after parsing it.

From my logs in Chardok last night - fighting Enslaved Iksar Miners, level 55 undead - my only recent log fighting undead (been fighting in Rujarkian hills for the last month or two). Not a big sample, but shows the effect easily. The analysis is undead only (using Caladel's EQParser). Dex was 305, ATK was about 1500. Fabled Mithril 2hander is the weapon, hasted 100%.

Total Slash hits (including specials): 410
Specials (crits and slays): 27
Crits: 20
Slays: 7

Specials/Hits = 27/410 = 6.6%
Slays/Hits = 7/410 = 1.7%
Crits/Hits = 20/410 = 4.9%
Slays/Specials = 7/27 = 25.9%

If the nerf hadn't happened, you'd see slays/hits equal to crits/hits, since prior to getting the pre-nerfed FotA, half of all crits become slays. The other way to say this is that you'd see slays/specials at 50%, not at 26%.[/url]


Prior to the changes 50% of critical hits were converted to Slays and Holyforge increased critical hits 200%(or 3x). Therefore Holyforge was a powerful disc for fighting undead. The PoP era change to Slay Undead ended the relationship between critical hits and Slays. No longer were 50% of critical hits converted to Slays. Of course this was a big nerf to Holyforge as it lost some of its power against undead. For years I have operated under the idea that at this time a change was also made for the game to check for critical hits and then slays(if a failure for critical). Such a system would have an even bigger negative impact on Holyforge vs. undead with Holyforge's huge increase to critical hits. So, I am glad to see that an attempt to provide accurate information is being made.

The resources linked in the original post provide more accurate information but one case perpetuates inaccurate information. Cellan's parses are very revealing concerning Holyforge. If we analyze his data for all his individual parses here is what we see:

Without Holyforge
106425 total hits, 7919 special hits(criticals and Slays), 2165 Slays
which is a 7.44% rate for special hits and a 2.03% rate for Slays


With Holyforge
21590 total hits, 2246 special hits(criticals, Slays, and crippling blows), 719 slays
which is a 10.40% rate for special hits and 3.33% rate for Slays

Thus under Holyforge we see a 39.78% increase to special hits and a 64.03% increase to Slays. From this we can conclude two things. Firstly, Holyforge does not triple the chance for critical hits as Romidar and Caladel originally parsed and as posted in the Paladin AA and Disc Guide. Secondly, I feel it is safe to conclude that Holyforge does increase slay rate. As the parses were done under varying conditions I think more parsing would need to be done to determine exactly how much Holyforge increases Slay rate but it appears to be on the order of 50% or so which is quite nice.

A couple people have already posted in this thread that they believe 2h weapons are better for undead DPS. I have to agree with Hulkling that we need more data. I believe that your choice for undead DPS will largely be determined by your available weapons, gear, and AAs. For example, I won BoFF in January. My best 2h DPS weapon at the time was Bloodstone Blade of the Zun'Muram. I didn't have any of the 2h DPS AAs so I felt the better choice for me was to go with BoFF and a shield. I didn't parse to see if it was a better choice so can't say that with any certainty. However, I do believe that the farther one moves along in progression the more likely a 2h weapon(such as our 2.0) will be a better choice for undead DPS.

Sorry I have been so long-winded. Just one question and I will leave you alone. You say that EQ checks for Slays and then criticals while, as I already mentioned, I was under the impression that the check order was criticals and then Slays. Can you reference where you got your information, please?
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Postby ZsaZsa Vavoom on 08 Jun 2007 17:55

I will post more sometime soon, as promised, but I don't think we need more data or parsing to understand 1h slays vs. 2h slays. Combat math is well enough understood that this is not needed. The short version of this discussion, and as always correct me if I'm wrong:

For normal combat, all other things being close to equal, you'd expect 2h weapons to produce better dps because of the damage bonus, which is added to every swing. As such, even if a 1h weapon has a slightly better ratio, the 2h weapon may well do more damage, due to the addition of the damage bonus on every swing.

Once slays enter the equation, the value of the damage bonus is greatly marginalized. When you hit a slay, the damage you would have otherwise done is multiplied by a large modifier, and this happens prior to the addition of the damage bonus. Consequently, while the damage bonus might previously have been an interesting percentage of your overall dps, it no longer is, because the damage modifier calculation has now been magnified substantially. Therefore, for practical purposes, when fighting undead with appropriate slay AA's, you'd expect to do more damage with whichever weapon has a better ratio, whether it is 1 or 2 handed; your slay damage becomes a substantial enough factor in your overall dps that it will almost surely negate any loss from lowering your damage bonus.

Sound about right? That make sense?

EDIT: Oh - Kotys also made a fine point that I glossed over. For all the times people come here asking how they can slay more, given existing skills and abilities, the answer always just boils down to "swing more". So if, for example, you have all the AA abilities that improve your 2h attack rate, you'd need to consult the parse data for how many more swings you'd actually get, but unless your 1h weapon had a vastly better ratio than your 2h weapon, it is likely that the additional swings due to the AA's would quickly overtake the benefit of the improved ratio. Bottom line: for most knights that are seriously worried about trying to maximize their undead dps, it is very unlikely that they should choose to use a 1h weapon, because not only must the 1h weapon have a better ratio (which would be unusual), it must have a substantially better ratio to overcome the additional swings introduced by 2h attack AA's. If you swing 10% more times with your 2h weapon (to pull a number out of the air), you're going to need a much better ratio 1h weapon to overcome that.
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Postby Galelor on 08 Jun 2007 19:12

I was slammed at work today. I'll get around to doing an edit in a bit if i am free.
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Re: Slay Undead

Postby Galelor on 08 Jun 2007 20:59

Added the Life Shard proc in, thanks UDP13

Updated AU cost, thanks orionpax.

Fixed the Holyforge "uncertanty" thing, thanks to the post from Kotys.

Removed the 1hs thing since all you hooker who have 2.5 super auged showed me the business! *wink*


Hulkling wrote:
Galelor wrote:Direct Increasers to the Intensity of Slays
Intensity of slay is defined as the damage inflicted from a slay.

Anything that can increase the amount damage one will inflict per hit will increase the damage one can output during a slay. This includes, but is not limited to: being a high level pc, higher damage weapons, damage augs on the weapon, AA (especially Intensity of the Resolute,) spells such as Champion, NPC susceptibility to melee/type of weapons, and Slay Undead-Vanquish Undead-Annihilate Undead.

Other than intensity of the Resolute, I can't think of any other AAs that will effect the intensity other than Slay/Vanquish/Annihilate....which are listed seperately at the end.

Add the slay formula and I think its darn near perfect, format and all


I was thinking the increased Bash damage AAs will make the Bash slays stronger. I don't actually know for sure if this is true, but with my understanding of how they work I think it is. Any ideas?
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Postby Luthair on 08 Jun 2007 23:21

I don't know if this is helpful but with 340 - 436 dex and 250 worn attack out of 8349 melee hits 433 were slays, or ~5.2%.
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Postby ZsaZsa Vavoom on 09 Jun 2007 00:07

I haven't yet bought the improved bash damage AA's, but the reason I haven't bought them is that it was my understanding they add onto damage bonus, not modifier, and not even that much. If this is the case, then the increase on slays would be no greater or better than the increase to any other attack. That is, they would have no appreciable effect on slays.

That right?
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Postby AaebFV on 09 Jun 2007 01:06

Right Zsazsa. The imp. bash AAs add 5 per rank to the DB, for a grand total of +25 DB after you have maxed it out.

Not really worth the cost if you have much of anything else to get.


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Postby Galelor on 09 Jun 2007 10:58

AaebFV wrote:Right Zsazsa. The imp. bash AAs add 5 per rank to the DB, for a grand total of +25 DB after you have maxed it out.

Not really worth the cost if you have much of anything else to get.


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Ah, i was under the impression it didn't add to damage bonus. I will nix that bit a little later today.

Also, I have not purchased the expendable AA yet, but I was under the impression that they didn't effect slay in any way. Am i correct?
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Postby AaebFV on 09 Jun 2007 12:00

The devs pritty much dont want anything to help out with slays.

Because slay is calculated diffrently then crits no AAs or mod2 will help you get more. This includes cleave, DoN AA and the expendable AA. Only a few things will make them bigger like might/loins spell lines, champ, 7th year vet, and Burial Rights (if it ever goes off).

With the next expansion I would love to see an AA line that increases the rate at witch we slay and NOT how big they are. But at the end of the day alot of people will bitch if we get more or bigger slays so pick your poision.


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Postby Galelor on 09 Jun 2007 14:00

AaebFV wrote:The devs pritty much dont want anything to help out with slays.

Because slay is calculated diffrently then crits no AAs or mod2 will help you get more. This includes cleave, DoN AA and the expendable AA. Only a few things will make them bigger like might/loins spell lines, champ, 7th year vet, and Burial Rights (if it ever goes off).

With the next expansion I would love to see an AA line that increases the rate at witch we slay and NOT how big they are. But at the end of the day alot of people will bitch if we get more or bigger slays so pick your poision.


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I altered the intensity description a bit to keep it in line with what we have discussed.
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Postby Galelor on 09 Jun 2007 17:46

I started putting in the slay formula stuff, and I kind of outlined what i envisioned it to look like.

Please review my slay rate and number of slays formulas. I am not exactly sure they are right...

I am in need of help with the intensity for weapons and bash. I am fairly in the dark on this one. Currently i am looking or the formula on how to calculate potential max weapon/bash damage (haven't been able to find it thus far.) Other parts of the formula are foggy too...
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Postby Galelor on 13 Jun 2007 13:11

Anyone able to help with the "Slay Formula" section???
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Postby ZsaZsa Vavoom on 13 Jun 2007 13:46

I haven't yet found the time, but honestly what I'd do is just track down Caladel and offer him a six pack or something. He probably has it written up already somewhere; when I was trying to parse stuff around the launch Annihilate Undead, he was my main source of information about the guts of combat math and how it relates to Slay.
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Postby Kotys on 13 Jun 2007 17:33

Galelor wrote
let: unmodified slay rate percentage = u; slay rate percentage modifiers via all slay AA = a; slay rate percentage modifiers via Holyforge = b; actual slay rate percentage = x; number of swings = s; number of slays = y;

Slay Rate
The slay rate during a given time frame, for a given number of swings.
u + a + b = x

Number of Slays
The number of slays during a given time frame.
s * x = y


Firstly, as a paladin can not get slays without the relevant AAs or Holyforge it is safe to say there is no unmodified slay rate. Secondly, paladins only get slays with hits, not swings(attack rounds). We can get up to three hits, and potentially three slays, per swing(attack round). Thirdly, what we are calling slay rate is not an actual rate but a chance for a slay to occur on any hit. So, I think the most we can say is s * x gives us an expected number of slays during a given time frame.

Finally, I think there is a lot of parsing to be done. Perhaps some of the work has been done and exists elsewhere. Again looking at Cellan's parses we see:

Code: Select all
                           % OF SLAYS                % OF SLAYS W/ HOLYFORGE
with VU1                    3.10                               3.22
with VU2                    3.20                               3.96
with VU3                    3.31                               4.08


It would seem that VU1, VU2, and VU3 have rates of 3.1%, 3.2%, and 3.3% respectively. It would be nice to see this confirmed with another parse. However, when you look at the % of slays with Holyforge it is impossible to draw any conclusions. Holyforge is kind of a pita to parse due to the long refresh timer. It would be interesting to see a slay parse for Holyforge without any Slay AAs to see if a rate could be determined for Holyforge.
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Postby dindaur on 14 Jun 2007 18:41

whole thing looks solid and sparkly nice work = )
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Postby Saintsaens on 14 Jun 2007 21:51

I wish I still had access to the beta boards from TSS. I believe it was Caladel who made a very nice post detailing this exact question of what the slay rates were for AU...

Unfortunately Sony appears to have removed the TSS beta boards in favor of the TBS ones :)

Also saw http://forums.station.sony.com/eq/posts ... _id=106881 , which may provide some data for this...
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Postby ZsaZsa Vavoom on 15 Jun 2007 09:50

So yeah. That stickied post above about parsing annihilate has a pasted discussion I had with Caladel which may answer some of your questions. Check that out...

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Postby Galelor on 15 Jun 2007 11:01

I have been slammed at work the last couple days. We have a bunch of people out today too. I am not sure i can get to this today, I'll do my best!
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Postby Ridden on 15 Jun 2007 12:40

Direct Increasers to Number of Slays
Number of Slays is defined as the number of times one slays during a given time period.

There are several things which can increase one's number of slays during a given time period. These would include, but is not limited to: lower delay weapons, both worn and cast haste, any increase to accuracy or attack, any increase to hit rate including Ferocity and AAs (also riposte if tanking,) Slay Undead and Annihilate Undead, and using bash.


While increasing atk most definitely increases the average size of your slays, it does nothing whatsoever for slay frequency.
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Postby Hulkling on 15 Jun 2007 13:36

I think max hit formula should be added (copied and pasted from Caledels post)

Formula:
max_hit = (weapon_damage * level_modifier) + 1 + bonus.
special_hit = (weapon_damage*level_modifier + 5) * special_modifier + 1 + bonus

slay_modifiers:
slay3: 17
vu1: 18
vu2: 19
vu3: 20
au1: 21
au2: 22
au3: 23
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Postby Galelor on 22 Jun 2007 09:38

Firstly, as a paladin can not get slays without the relevant AAs or Holyforge it is safe to say there is no unmodified slay rate. Secondly, paladins only get slays with hits, not swings(attack rounds). We can get up to three hits, and potentially three slays, per swing(attack round). Thirdly, what we are calling slay rate is not an actual rate but a chance for a slay to occur on any hit. So, I think the most we can say is s * x gives us an expected number of slays during a given time frame.


I adjusted some of the verbage to reflect your post, and i also adjusted the formulas with reflection of your post.

While increasing atk most definitely increases the average size of your slays, it does nothing whatsoever for slay frequency.


Not sure how/why i slotted attack in there. I fixed that oversite, thank you for pointing it out.

I will be taking a closer look at http://forums.station.sony.com/eq/posts ... _id=106881 and at Hulkling's post in a bit. I am yet again slaving away in the office, so when i get some free time *wink*
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Postby Galelor on 22 Jun 2007 11:25

oh jez, i just checked this out. http://giline.versus.jp/shiden/damage_e.htm
I'll go through and cut/paste in my own special way.
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Postby Siocnarf on 22 Jun 2007 12:14

What does the <int> stands for in the formulas at http://giline.versus.jp/shiden/damage_e.htm website btw ? If its intelligence its the first time i see that in damage calculation.
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Postby Galelor on 22 Jun 2007 12:25

Without having the time to look at the actual formula, my best guess would be int=integer
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Postby Kianor on 22 Jun 2007 12:25

It is short for integer - that is, it takes the integer portion of a number and ignores the fractional/decimal part.

For example, <int> (24*0.1) is the integer portion of 2.4, 2.
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Postby Kotys on 22 Jun 2007 12:25

If you liked that one, check out this one.

You will see that I was wrong to say that Holyforge doesn't give a 200% increase to criticals. It does increase your baseline critical rate by 200%. But not the modified rate like I was seeing in Cellan's parses. Also, as mentioned by TenFon, Holyforge has an independent Slay rate or 1.4%(confirmed in the linked parses). So a + b = x is correct and b is either 1.4% or 0% depending on whether Holyforge is active or not.

There is a discrepancy between Cellan's parses and these parses(unfortunately I don't know who deserves the credit for this work). Cellan parsed VU1, 2, and 3 at 3.10%, 3.20%, and 3.30% while in this other work they were parsed at 4.8%, 4.9%, and 5.1%. Any idea why the discrepancy?
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Postby Galelor on 22 Jun 2007 12:54

Kotys wrote:If you liked that one, check out this one.

You will see that I was wrong to say that Holyforge doesn't give a 200% increase to criticals. It does increase your baseline critical rate by 200%. But not the modified rate like I was seeing in Cellan's parses. Also, as mentioned by TenFon, Holyforge has an independent Slay rate or 1.4%(confirmed in the linked parses). So a + b = x is correct and b is either 1.4% or 0% depending on whether Holyforge is active or not.

There is a discrepancy between Cellan's parses and these parses(unfortunately I don't know who deserves the credit for this work). Cellan parsed VU1, 2, and 3 at 3.10%, 3.20%, and 3.30% while in this other work they were parsed at 4.8%, 4.9%, and 5.1%. Any idea why the discrepancy?


RNG maybe. Even over long parces it has been proven to be fairly problematic.
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Postby Galelor on 28 Jun 2007 20:21

I updated a shitload of stuff in the slay forumal section using mostly http://giline.versus.jp/shiden/damage_e.htm as my resource.

I don't speak whatever lang http://giline.versus.jp/shiden/su.htm is in, and i can't DL the lang packs at work. Does this link state that Holyforge increases slay rate from between 1.4% and 1.5%? Are the parces large enough to suppor this?

I need help with the bash forumla section. I have no idea how bash is calculated and how it is calculated via slay. I am tempted to just say fuck this sectoin as i really have no clue. any input?

also, as usually, please review my work and let me know if you see ANY mistakes!
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Postby Galelor on 29 Jun 2007 12:03

read the post above *wink wink wink* I am excited to get this finished up, after the reduculous amount of work i put into the damn foruma section lol.
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Postby Galelor on 03 Jul 2007 03:08

I had forgotten a ) in the weapond damage max formula, and i had to fix the min slay intensity forumla. I can't believe I saw that stuff at 2am =p
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Postby joks on 03 Jul 2007 11:03

I know atk doesn't play a special role in slays, but on the general question of maxing undead dps, atk plays a big part. going from 2000-2200 atk to 2800-3000 atk in optimal situations provides a significant boost. I find maxing atk is one of the most significant things to do to max the dps.
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